The second amendment says:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.This consists of two parts, the preamble “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” and the effective part “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”.
The meaning of the effective part is very straightforward: “arms” means any kind of weapon. A bowie knife is “arms”, and during the Cold War the superpowers engaged in “Strategic Arms Limitations Talks” (SALT). Although military technology has changed beyond all recognition, the use of the word “arms” to mean any kind of weapon has not changed since 1791 when the Bill of Rights was ratified. Had James Madison and the other framers of the constitution been shown the modern world they would have had no hesitation in agreeing that any form of modern weaponry from a bowie knife to a nuke was included in the definition.
So it would seem that anyone in the United States of America has the constitutional right to purchase, say, a shoulder launched surface to air missile, and to bear that armament anywhere they wish, such as near the end of a runway where large passenger jets are taking off. That would not be a good idea. If military weapons were widely available then they would be used for mass murder of unarmed civilian targets. Stephen Paddock, the Las Vegas shooter, seems to have set out to kill as many people as possible, and he managed to kill 58. An Airbus A-380 typically has a maximum capacity of 525 plus crew, and if one were bought down over the right bit of city then the body count could go into the thousands. Given the opportunity Paddock would surely have done so, and he is not unique.
The Courts
Today the original intent of the Second Amendment is dead as a matter of established law. It is not legal for anyone within the United States to make or buy heavy weapons except under the most stringent and careful of controls.
This would have surprised and
disappointed the framers. They had just fought a war in which
ordinary armed citizens had beaten off the professional British army.
The framers saw this as an important lesson; the liberty of their new
nation would be assured by having an armed citizenry who could be
relied upon to form a militia and fight against any future tyrant,
foreign or domestic. This is what the preamble part of the Second
Amendment is about.
I haven’t been able to find any case in which the constitutionality of this ban on heavy weapons has ever been truly tested. However the courts have found that bans on semi-automatic rifles and the carrying of handguns in public are constitutional, and the Supreme Court has declined to review these decisions.
In the case of the Maryland ban on assault rifles, the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals decided 10-4 that the ban was constitutional. The judgement explains this with “Put simply, we have no power to extend Second Amendment protections to weapons of war”. The framers of the constitution would have found that bizzare; to them the Second Amendment was precisely about weapons of war.
On the other hand back in 1939 in the Miller case the Supreme Court decided that a sawn-off shotgun was not protected by the Second Amendment because it was not potentially a military weapon, and this is still a valid precedent (they may have been wrong about the military use of sawn-off shotguns in particular, but the principle still stands). So the 4th Circuit has decided that military weapons are unprotected, and the Supreme Court has decided that non-military weapons are unprotected. According to these precedents it would seem that Americans have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms, except for military weapons and non-military weapons.
Self Defense
The most recent case on the Second Amendment that reached the Supreme Court was District of Columbia v Heller in 2008, which was about the constitutionality of a ban on handguns and a requirement that larger guns be kept unloaded and locked. The Court found 5-4 that this ban violated the Second Amendment.The Heller case was about restrictions on small arms rather than heavy weapons, and the decision is rightly focussed on that. So the question of whether it is constitutional to own heavy weapons was not directly considered. However if the Court had found that small arms are protected by the plain meaning of the Second Amendment, then someone would have used this to challenge laws banning heavy weapons on the grounds that they are equally protected by the Second Amendment. So to overturn the handgun ban the Court had to do two things. First, they had to ignore the plain meaning of the words they were analysing, and second they had to find some other right to keep small arms.
They managed the first part by finding that the Second Amendment is not an unlimited right. They dispose of this in one brief paragraph:
Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
It is true that, as with other parts of the Bill of Rights, the government can restrict the scope of a right where it has a pressing need to do so. Thus, for instance the First Amendment has at various times been limited to exclude the publication of libel, copyright infringement, certain secrets, and various kinds of pornography. However the scope of First Amendment restrictions has only rarely been allowed to extend beyond those areas. The only significant case in modern times was the Sedition Act of 1918, which the Supreme Court found constitutional the following year. However this is now considered to be a mistake; today the heart of the First Amendment is seen as political speech and any speech touching on politics enjoys the highest level of constitutional protection. The framers of the Constitution would surely agree that this is the proper state of affairs.
However the restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms are not so limited. The Second Amendment is primarily about military weapons, but under federal law today only weapons of little military use may be legally held by civilians. Imagine if the First Amendment were restricted to stating opinions that are in "common use", with citizens only allowed to comment on local politics and speech on state and national affairs being restricted to those government officials employed to do so. That would not be freedom of speech as it is understood in most of the world; indeed it would resemble many dicatorships.
So having found that the Second Amendment does not in fact protect the right to keep and bear most arms, the Supreme Court in 2008 had to find a right that protected handguns. They found this in the right to self defense.
Unlike the right to keep and bear arms, the right to self defense is not enumerated in the Bill of Rights. This is not a problem because the Ninth Amendment specifically says that this “shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people”. Anyone being attacked has the right to defend themselves with whatever means may be at hand; if you are faced with an attacker then you may pick up a golf club and swing at their head, or try to stab them with a kitchen knife, or just use your fists. The question in such cases is not whether the weapon is legal but whether it is used in a legitimate act of self defense. The same argument applies to guns; if you are forced to defend yourself then using a gun is as reasonable as using a knife, even if that gun was not one you were legally permitted to have.
However in Heller the Supreme Court, after exhaustive analysis of the history of self defense law in both the United States and the United Kingdom, concluded that the right to self defense included the right to keep a hand gun in your house for that purpose.
As an aside, I should say that some state constitutions provide a right to bear arms in self defense. Obviously in those states the situation is different, but this post is about the US constitution.
I’m not going to go any further into
this question of personal self defense because this essay is not
about that; its about the Second Amendment. Heller is not about the
general right to keep and bear arms, its about the right to keep a hand gun
as self defense against home invasions. The fact that the Supreme
Court found it necessary to invoke a different right to protect hand
guns shows that they don’t believe in the Second Amendment either;
they actually upheld something different.
The NRA Version of the Second Amendment
The original purpose of the Second Amendment was not individual defense against home invasion, it was collective defense against tyranny. Despite a long consideration of the “well regulated militia” the Heller decision is silent on this question.Supporters of the NRA are not silent on this question; when asked to justify the right to keep and bear small arms they claim that their guns are a bulwark against government over-reach. Some go so far as to claim that overturning the Second Amendment is the first step in a deep and dark plot to overthrow the rest of the Bill of Rights and institute a socialist tyranny.
However the historical facts do not support the NRA rhetoric on this. Since 1776 the US government has been responsible for a long and sad list of human rights violations, but civilian firearms have never prevented any of them. The last century alone saw the following:
-
The Sedition Act of 1918, which directly violated the First Amendment by restricting political speech.
-
The internment of Japanese Americans in World War II, in violoation of pretty much every constitutional right they had.
-
The “Jim Crow” laws of the southern states, finally abolished in 1964. Not only were these laws themselves an infringement on the constitutional rights of many citizens, but they went alongside a grossly biased justice system that somehow never got around to prosecuting white perpetrators of violence against blacks.
-
The Chicago “machine” rigging elections and protecting corrupt politicians.
-
The FBI investigating and undermining lawful civil rights movements under J. Edgar Hoover
-
Civil
forfeiture used to
seize property under mere suspicion.
-
Pretextual traffic stops and “parallel construction” used to
cover violations of the Fourth Amendment.
-
A
national security apparatus that routinely scans the email and other private communications of many American citizens without any
effective oversight.
Has there ever been a case where guns held by civilians were effective in preventing a violation of constituional rights? I doubt it. The fact is that if the American government decides to act in violation of the constitution then there is nothing that a small band of gun owners can do to stop them. The government can always bring in bigger guns and more of them. Various small bands have tried to defy the government; it always ends badly. Today the only ways to change the way the American government behaves are the ballot box, the courts, and
Edit: This Stack Exchange question points to the Wounded Knee incident in 1973, which was indeed a case where civilians with guns prevented the infringement of constitutional rights by the government. Another answer to the same question also cited the Bundy standoff of 2014 and the related Malheur occupation of 2016, but they are not good examples. The Bundy standoff seems to have been driven by Cliven Bundy's fringe beliefs about federal land ownership rather than a real infringement of constitutional rights, and the Malheur occupation ended with the shooting of one participant and the arrest of everyone else.
The Second Amendment Today
The Bill of Rights was written at a time when there was little difference between military and civilian firearms, military ships were in civilian hands (“privateers”), and the fastest means of communication was a rider on horseback. Firearms were mostly muzzle-loading flintlocks; a skilled gunman might get off two or three rounds per minute and for an individual they were effectively single-shot weapons. They were also not very accurate. Effective use of such weapons required collective action to keep the enemy at bay while you reloaded. The only thing bigger than a rifle was a cannon, which was also muzzle loading and inaccurate.Today the scope of military weapons has expanded along with the rest of our technology. If the Second Amendment were taken at face value today then many high explosive ranged weapons capable of major destruction would be within the financial reach of much of the population. I opened this essay by inviting you to consider a shoulder launched surface to air missile. I’d like to close by inviting you to consider a school shooter with a bazooka firing a white phosphorus munition.
Most of the Bill of Rights has fared surprisingly well with time; the First Amendment right to free speech now applies to film, television, web sites and computer software, but the basic principle is still the same. This is equally true of Amendments 3 to 10. The Second stands out as a product of its time, overtaken by changes in technology and society.
If you truly believe in the Second Amendment then you believe that any military weapon held by the armed forces of the United States should also be legally available to most civilians. I think the number of people who really believe that is very small. Even the National Rifle Association only believes in the right to keep rifles. There is no National Bazooka Association (actually that’s not true, but it seems to be only one person and may just be a joke).
27 comments:
so my comment didn't take?
ha ha. was it me or you that deep six'ed that?
I don't know what happened to your prevous post: I didn't delete it. I got notified about it by email, and was considering replying, though it didn't seem terribly coherent.
Here is the text you tried to post, copied from the email I got. I've left the link off: its not relevant AFAICT and its just possible that some anti-spam engine removed your comment because of it.
---------------------
Pretty well written, Paul. But some specious arguments aside (you can own actual howitzers, machine guns, et al and live fire them if you get the permits) I can tell you this -- I didn't get forcibly injected with the Covid gene therapy shot because there is a Second Amendment. Of that I have no doubt. And as a result I won't have to look over my shoulder the the rest of my life wondering if that infernal shot(s) was the culprit of some serious medical issue that might arise.
1) I'm a free speech absolutist and yes you can yell fire in a crowded theater because it just might be on fire as you see it. WW1 was a fire.
2) 'God created men and Colt made them equal.'
3) Any government issue to a regular GI is covered under the 2A. I'm looking forward to my space laser. ha ha
4) The only reason you in the UK, Canada, NZ and Australia are free to be SUBJECTS is because in the U.S. we CITIZENS have a 2A (our freedom does trickle down to you somewhat). Otherwise your leaders having read 1984, Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 thinking them swell ideas would really have you under some single global government spell. ha ha
5) An assault weapon by definition must have a fully automatic capability so an AR15 (Armalite) is not an assault weapon. When the AR15 was banned by Feinstein and pals the AR15 at the time and for years later had not and was not used in mass shootings. The politicians talked about them so much the prescription SSRI nutters looked into them and started using them. Politicians drove the use of these rifles in mass shooting crimes.
6) Stop counting gun suicides as part of the problem. There are plenty of countries with strict gun laws that have equal or higher suicide rates than the U.S. and they aren't using guns to do the deed.
Yes, you can own heavy weapons *if you can get the prermits*. They are excluded from your constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
I call bullshit on your claim that the 2A prevented you getting a Covid shot (aside: hey, try being less stupid). I'm in the UK, and I wasn't forced to get a Covid shot either. But I chose to have them, because I'm not stupid.
Your points 1-3 don't seem relevant.
On your point 4: the popular fantasy that the most powerful and best equipped army in the world is quaking in its boots because of some guys running around in the woods with AR-15s is nonsense. The idea that this somehow guarantees democracy in my country too is nonsense on stilts.
Point 5: irrelevant. This isn't about the definition of "assault rifle", its about the fact that they are not protected by the 2A.
Point 6: Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate The only reasonably rich countries with a higher suicide rate than the US is South Korea (where its mostly old people who don't want to be a burden) and Lithuania, where guns are fairly readily available. And of course the numbers don't include Suicide By Cop, which happens quite a lot in the USA. Over here you can't even do suicide by cop because our cops don't generally have guns.
Having written several (three to four) paragraphs regarding the Covid gene therapy shot I deleted them. I don't need to demonstrate my reasoning of the time in order to be exculpated from being called stupid by you. Suffice it to say again that I feel great relief at not having to look over my shoulder in that regard. It all went as I planned it for me and mine. I will respond further soon regarding your actual topic. ;0)
P.S. Late to the game was Dr. John Campbell (RN) who indeed did take the shots. He has had an awakening of sorts. Maybe your fellow Brit can add to your fount of knowledge on the matter and of course he is much maligned now on his turning.
https://www.youtube.com/@Campbellteaching
On your point 4: the popular fantasy that the most powerful and best equipped army in the world is quaking in its boots because of some guys running around in the woods with AR-15s is nonsense.
Tell it to the Vietnamese and to the Afghans. ha ha.. It is clear that the military would coerce and even fire upon Americans resisting a tyrannical government. That is until they are shot back at and then they'll stop and turn on the government rather than killing their kith and kin as you would have them. And of course much of military would off the bat be aligned with those "guys running around in the woods."
The idea that this somehow guarantees democracy in my country too is nonsense on stilts.
Most successful dystopian authors are English for a reason. Of course your freedom relies on the U.S. and of course our defense against a tyrannical government secures your freedom way over there in the rest of the anglo-sphere... the only reason you got Brexit really. ha ha Boy did you guys screw that up.
Point 5: irrelevant. This isn't about the definition of "assault rifle", its about the fact that they are not protected by the 2A.
Of course they are protected. We citizens with our rights also exist to join a militia and fight alongside the regular military. As such we need to be NATO compliant if you will. What is general issue to an infantry soldier: helmet, body armor, boots, MRE's, ammunition, side arms, rifles, ... They are all reasonably protected by the 2A. Your insecurity on the matter and of course peace time deaths by guns are the price of doing business in a free society. We used to feel more secure in this concept until leftist cultural values somehow diminished the value of human life by killing God and encouraging abortions in the most evil sense possible. Go figure.
Point 6: Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate The only reasonably rich countries with a higher suicide rate than the US is South Korea (where its mostly old people who don't want to be a burden) and Lithuania, where guns are fairly readily available. And of course the numbers don't include Suicide By Cop, which happens quite a lot in the USA. Over here you can't even do suicide by cop because our cops don't generally have guns.
I looked at wiki and many other sources on this topic a long time ago. Countries ("rich ones") have suicide rates somewhat under or above that of the U.S. (5 +/- on the per 100k scale) and the funny thing is people still commit suicide regardless their access to guns. Japan is particularly striking. So when criminal gun violence is conflated with gun suicides so as to argue against the 2A it is a red herring.
Reconcile this:
It is true that, as with other parts of the Bill of Rights, the government can restrict the scope of a right where it has a pressing need to do so. Thus, for instance the First Amendment has at various times been limited to exclude the publication of libel, copyright infringement, certain secrets, and various kinds of pornography. However the scope of First Amendment restrictions has only rarely been allowed to extend beyond those areas. The only significant case in modern times was the Sedition Act of 1918, which the Supreme Court found constitutional the following year. However this is now considered to be a mistake; today the heart of the First Amendment is seen as political speech and any speech touching on politics enjoys the highest level of constitutional protection. The framers of the Constitution would surely agree that this is the proper state of affairs.(◔_◔)
With this:
Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH (AS IN WORDS) IS ABSOLUTE WHEN NOT IN THE FURTHERANCE OF A CRIME. SUCH AS DIRECTING A BANK ROBBERY BY RADIO OR INCITING VIOLENCE IN AN IMMEDIATE SENSE.
> [Youtube] @Campbellteaching
Perhaps you should read e.g. https://fullfact.org/health/john-campbell-youtube-singapore-children/
I don't watch YouTube videos; I prefer to read. Much easier to check things as I go, and also a lot faster.
> Tell it to the Vietnamese and to the Afghans. ha ha..
The Viet Cong were supported by Moscow and Beijing. The Mujahideen were supported by the USA, and after Russia left they rebadged themselves as the Taliban and took support from Pakistan. Which foreign enemy of America do you plan on allying yourself with?
Of course, a Second American Civil War would not look like the first, with mass armies in set-piece battles for strategic forts and cities. It would actually look much more like the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Dominated by car bombs, death squads and kneecapings. And even then the IRA weren't able to manage without support from the USSR and Libya.
> Of course your freedom relies on the U.S. and of course our defense against a tyrannical government secures your freedom way over there in the rest of the anglo-sphere
I don't follow. Are you talking about NATO? But NATO has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. Or something else? Your claim seems to be that if the 2A were repealed this would tip Europe into a dictatorship. Can you explain how you arrived at this conclusion?
> Of course [assault rifles] are protected. We citizens with our rights also exist to join a militia and fight alongside the regular military.
I think the regular military might not be too keen on sharing the battlespace with a bunch of half-trained (at best) civilian irregulars. Have you asked any of them about that?
(Actually, I happen to know a couple of National Guard members on another forum. They believe that *they* are the real Militia mentioned in the 2A, and are quite scathing about the idea that some randoms with AR15s are their equal.)
> As such we need to be NATO compliant if you will. What is general issue to an infantry soldier: helmet, body armor, boots, MRE's, ammunition, side arms, rifles, ... They are all reasonably protected by the 2A.
OK, go get yourself an M16 and take a walk across Times Square with it. Lets see how "reasonably protected" by the 2A it is in reality.
And of course a real war would need a lot more than M16s. Got any MANPADS handy? Try taking one of *those* to Times Square. Or better yet, Rockaway Beach under the JFK flight path.
I don't want to get bogged down in the suicide thing: I'll grant that someone determined to commit suicide is going to find a way. However most suicides are not rational decisions reached after careful consideration; they are more often the impulsive "I'll kill myself and then they'll be sorry" type. Making someone take 5 minutes instead of 5 seconds can make a big difference.
> Reconcile this:
Sorry, is there a point in there somewhere?
I ran into a 4K character limitation. Ellipse'd your long winded stuff ;0)
*Perhaps you should read e.g. https://fullfact.org/health/john-campbell-youtube-singapore-children/
** I don't have to because it is all in my rear view mirror and I never have look back on that and wonder.
*I don't watch YouTube videos; I prefer to read. Much easier to check things as I go, and also a lot faster.
** So no podcasts for you?
*The Viet Cong were supported by Moscow and Beijing. The Mujahideen were supported by the USA...enemy of America do you plan on allying yourself with?
** You've been calling them the enemy already - the American people.
*Of course, a Second American Civil War would not look like the first, ... death squads and kneecapings. And even then the IRA weren't able to manage without support from the USSR and Libya.
** Yes, Ratzinger/Kinzinger called it. A war of assassination. Not enough Secret Service to go around I'd guess.
* I don't follow. Are you ... Can you explain how you arrived at this conclusion?
** They way you were treated under Covid lockdown in the UK, Canada, NZ and Australia tells the natural story of the subject culture. If America did not exist you'd devolve into the spitting image depicted in 1984. And I'd guess you will very soon our 2nd A. not withstanding. Our freedom does indeed impact yours.
** Of course [assault rifles] are protected. We citizens with our rights also exist to join a militia and fight alongside the regular military.
I think the regular military might not be too keen on sharing the battlespace with a bunch of half-trained (at best) civilian irregulars. Have you asked any of them about that?
**Have you asked them? Maybe you should get past the propaganda television depiction served up for your viewing pleasure.
*(Actually, I happen to know a couple of National Guard members on another forum. They believe that *they* are the real Militia mentioned in the 2A, and are quite scathing about the idea that some randoms with AR15s are their equal.)
** IDE's will wipe the grin off their faces. Always does.
* OK, go get yourself an M16 and take a walk across Times Square with it. Lets see how "reasonably protected" by the 2A it is in reality.
** What does that have to do with anything?
*And of course a real war would need a lot more than M16s. Got any MANPADS handy? Try taking one of *those* to Times Square. Or better yet, Rockaway Beach under the JFK flight path.
** You said it above and the you revert back to nuking the American people type talk. You and Congressman Swallowswell brothers or something? Really not my fault you're not a tactical let alone strategic thinker. You reiterate the propagated nonsense of the left.
*I don't want to get bogged down in the suicide thing: ... Making someone take 5 minutes instead of 5 seconds can make a big difference.
**This isn't really true as Japan clearly demonstrates let alone psychological science. Maybe talk to your suicidal NG friends.
* Reconcile this:
Sorry, is there a point in there somewhere?
** You asserted that free speech only truly speaks to political speech and it doesn't. Religious speech is on equal footing if you believe in the constitution as law with original intent (i.e. rule of law) and not a "living" document (i.e. rule of man) of death. Death of an elected representative constitutional republic.
> I don't have to because [Covid] is all in my rear view mirror and I never have look back on that and wonder.
Its in your future too.
https://www.wired.com/story/theres-a-huge-covid-surge-right-now-you-probably-didnt-notice/
And as for having to wonder about "what if":
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-50024-4
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(23)00414-9/fulltext
TL;DR: Long Covid is a thing. It has widespread effects on the whole body. Vaccines are proven to reduce its incidence and severity. You are a fool not to take advantage of this.
[Me:] which enemy of America do you plan on allying yourself with?
> You've been calling them the enemy already - the American people.
So where are you going to get more guns and ammunition from? Explosives for IEDs? The kind of insurrection against a totalitarian state that you seem to envisage is going to need the support of a foreign government. Which one?
And which American people are you talking about? The ones with guns who did this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre Or the ones with guns who got bombed by the American government? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
In any such civil war there are going to be at least two sides, probably a lot more. What are you going to do about all the American people who don't agree with what you are doing?
> They way you were treated under Covid lockdown in the UK, Canada, NZ and Australia tells the natural story of the subject culture.
Can you be more specific? Its hard to argue against this, except to say that the lockdown was a reasonable public health measure put in place by a democratically elected government. Beyond that I can't comment because I don't know what you are talking about.
[Me:] Get an M16
> What does that have to do with anything?
> Of course [assault rifles] are protected. We citizens with our rights also exist to join a militia and fight alongside the regular military.
You said that rifles on general issue to the US military (i.e. M16s) are protected under the 2A. You are wrong. See Heller holding 2, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act. It is possible to own an M16 or even a MANPAD legally, but only if are given permission by the ATF. You have no constitutional right to do so. You also need to apply for permission to move it across state lines and there are various state law restrictions, some of which outright ban such weapons.
This comes back to the point of my original article. The 2A says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". An M16 or a MANPAD is "arms". Under the 2A you have the right to keep and bear either of those, but the law says otherwise and SCOTUS has upheld the law. In reality, right now, military weapons are not protected under the 2A.
> You asserted that free speech only truly speaks to political speech and it doesn't. Religious speech is on equal footing
I never said that. I said that political speech enjoys the highest protection. Religious speech, as you say, enjoys equal protection. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65549975
This has been fun but...
The only fool here, if there has to be a fool, is you for taking an unproven gene therapy shot in animal or human trials. As a matter of fact this tech killed the subjects of animal trials. There wasn't a single animal trial that cured anything prior to Covid.
The purpose of this shot was to acclimate you to the mRNA shot delivery platform. This was about money. They envisaged and still envisage a plethora of mRNA health care solutions.
Too bad their first product they chose to replicate was a spike protein that is vascular sand paper. Too bad they didn't pick any number of other epitopes they could have gone after.
So this delivery system cannot be targeted to the deltoid muscle only. It has been shown that the mRNA is showing up in all kinds of body tissues. Not only that but the shot is contaminated with an assortment of genetic materials to include DNA. So if you have the shot and you successfully create spike protein you can induce heart trouble. If your shot delivers malformed mRNA you end up with malformed proteins that seem to induce an allergic reaction. This malformation seems to come from the pseudo-uradine they used to fool your immune system from dealing with said mRNA before it is incorporated into your cells.
To be honest I don't know what to tell people who took this shot. To stop taking them or to keep taking them because the science isn't being done to determine the answer to such a question. I in such a situation would stop taking them and risk the antibody dependent enhancement issue instead.
Some say Ivermectin can attack the spike protein. Sincerely, good luck with your shots.
https://c19ivm.org/meta.html
Well, I hope that post didn't mess up your psyche, Paul.
Peace.
Paul, are you alright?
I'm fine, its just I have this thing called "a life".
Don't worry, it takes a lot more than a conspiracy theory to upset me. I've actually been something of a student of conspiracy theories since the 80s, when I first encountered them. I've spent time arguing with creationists, reading about flying saucers, debating alternative health, and even browsing the flat earth society web pages. So the antivax conspiracy theory is kind of old hat: just a new guise for the same old nonsense. The only *really* irritating thing about this one is how many people it is killing. Flat earthism and flying sorcerery are basically just weird minority religions. Creationism is harmless as long as it stays out of school biology lessons. But telling people not to use life-saving vaccines is actively harmful. I know you see it the other way around, but then that's conspiracy theories for you.
Let me ask you a question: how many people around the world do you think are "in" on this conspiracy: they know the truth (as you see it) of the evils of vaccines, but whether out of fear or greed or misplaced loyalty they are staying quiet. Can you put a number on it?
You'd have to start with pretty much every practising medic in the world. Then add on all the medical regulators around the world, and the people who work for drug companies. And don't forget all the people in the media who are suppressing this information. Go on: do some research, and then do the arithmetic. I'll be interested to hear your numbers.
Now, can you explain how these people were recruited into this conspiracy? How do you organise them? How are you going to tell all these people what to do and what happens if they don't? That many people will require some kind of centralised bureaucracy to track them, and bureaucrats mean (a) more people to add to the conspiracy and (b) paperwork. So where is all this paperwork? On a computer? That hasn't been hacked yet?
Did they send out emails? I can tell you as a professional person (software) that if I got an email purporting to be from a government agency and ordering me to do something clearly and seriously illegal, I would (a) forward it to my company security and (b) pass it round the office for a good laugh. So not by email. Personal visits by men wearing threateningly black suits? Or what?
Really, how is this supposed to have worked? As soon as you stop talking about a shadowy "them" and consider the practical reality of organising this, the whole thing falls apart under its own weight.
And in the meantime, perhaps I should mention that I know quite a few people besides myself who have had multiple COVID vaccines. And *they are all still healthy*. Funny, that.
> Some say Ivermectin can attack the spike protein. Sincerely, good luck with your shots.
> https://c19ivm.org/meta.html
But on the other hand this study found evidence of systematic bias in Ivermectin studies, which probably accounts for this.
Paul,
It is not a conspiracy theory rather it is the culimnation of human mediocrity.
I used to think that humanity escaped evolutionary pressures and that the theory ceased to apply to humans. It was gradual at first but then I realized how wrong I was. That indeed Darwin does still press his foot on the neck of humans less capable in surviving. Sometimes it is horrible arbitrary fate and other times it is the subject taking an active role in choosing to act or behave in a manner leading to extinction. I don't try to take it personally when someone objects to MY narrative of the facts.
Pssst.... the Bible is a religious tome and not a scientific textbook. As such read the Bible not for the true an innerrant word of God for the spiritually true and innerant word of God. I don't look for the science of the flood or Jonah and the whale. I look for the spiritual truth being taught.
KJV and Wilmington's Bible Handbook ($50) will save your children and grand-children the desolation of being absent from the presence of God and instead being with the kind of people who populates today's prisons (that is the lake of fire).
YOU: But on the other hand this study found evidence of systematic bias in Ivermectin studies, which probably accounts for this.
ME: I'm happy to go with the meta-study I linked you to. You can feel assuaged by the notion that Darwin is coming to get my kind. :0)
"spiritually true and spiritually innerant"
I misspoke. Might seem trivial an edit but it isn't.
> It is not a conspiracy theory rather it is the culimnation of human mediocrity.
Lets see. In your past postings you've said quite a lot about the COVID vaccine:
* "unproven ... killed the subjects of animal trials": See here for a fact check.
* "The purpose of this shot was to acclimate you to the mRNA shot delivery platform. ... They ... envisage a plethora of mRNA health care solutions.". Who are "they"?
* "vascular sandpaper": Where do I start? That's not even wrong.
So either there are a lot of people knowingly telling lies and committing federal crimes to cover this up (i.e. a giant conspiracy), or you were wrong. So I repeat my earlier challenge: how many people do you believe to be in on the conspiracy?
As for "its all about money", how much does Dr. John Campbell make from his YouTube channel? Did you know that Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who kicked off this whole anti-vax thing with the fraudulent MMR paper, was paid over £400,000 (plus expenses) by American lawyers? The laywers wanted to launch a class action against the vaccine makers, but couldn't do it without some kind of medical evidence. So they paid Wakefield to create some. Wakefield didn't disclose this conflict of interest. You've heard all about the money made by drug companies. Now tell me: how much money is being made by the leaders of the anti-vax movement?
As for Darwin, funny you should mention that. I'm assuming you are a Republican. There is good evidence that COVID killed Republicans at a significantly higher rate than Democrats. In fact, the number of extra Republicans who died may have been big enough to swing the last Presidential election to Biden (i.e. if they'd been alive to vote, Biden would have lost). Also, this isn't a one-off from COVID: Republican government is more generally bad for your health. But I don't celebrate that: its a tragedy and a farce.
1) Actually, there was a trial that used ferrets that received mRNA shots prior to the Covid pandemic. They died. No animal was ever cured of anything with mRNA shots prior to Covid.
2) Andrew Wakefield has his side of the story. I believe him and not you on the matter on the basis of his interview with Del Bigtree. You don't have the patience to watch a video and this one takes a while to get traction but once you get to that point the rest flows in a rather interesting fashion.
https://thehighwire.com/ark-videos/the-most-important-interview-of-our-time/
3) Moderna (never having taken a product to market) before Covid was peddling its mRNA shots to cure a myriad of things. Neither they nor Pfizer had ever used mRNA shots to cure anything in humans let alone animals. But now your guinea pig selves, having had your cherry broken, you'll want more.
4) Lifelong registered independent and classical liberal adherent. When the malformed proteins from the shot turn to self-replicating prions, the world will be missing your libertine politics I'm sure.
P.S. try to give the wakefield interview a whirl. I'm sure it will be the first time you heard his side of story beyond the leftist UK propaganda.
> 1) Actually, there was a trial that used ferrets that received mRNA shots prior to the Covid pandemic. They died.
Reference? Or is this just something someone said in a video?
> 2) Andrew Wakefield has his side of the story.
I tried the video, but as soon as I tried to skip forwards it broke. Probably my player. Never mind, life is too short. Even on 1.5 speed its going to take almost an hour, and I've got that life I mentioned.
The reason I avoid "evidence" posted on video isn't just that its a pain to sit through, its that its a tell for fraud and scam. By all means have videos: some people like them. But where is the text? Where is something that has references and links out to actual primary evidence, not just handwaving claims? If that exists, by all means point me at it. If it's missing, then that tells me that Wakefield & co *can't* put it down in writing, because then its too easy to pick apart.
I've no doubt Wakefield talks a good game: its part of being a successful fraudster. As someone said, "honesty is everything; fake that and you've got it made".
> I believe him and not you on the matter
I'm not asking you to believe *me*, I'm asking you to believe the entire rest of the medical profession. Which brings my back, again, to my earlier question: how many people do you believe are actively and knowingly suppressing the truth? I'm going to keep asking that until you give me an answer.
> 3) Moderna ...
By that argument we can never do anything new. Yes, mRNA is a whole new way of generating medicine. But its also subject to the same stringent test and safety requirements as anything else. "Untried" and "guinea pig" are just insults; they have nothing to do with reality.
And what do you mean by "having had your cherry broken, you'll want more"? Is it wrong to want better, cheaper medical treatments for serious diseases? You're not making sense here. Try explaining what you actually mean instead of using some vague metaphor.
> 4) Lifelong registered independent and classical liberal adherent.
I assume this refers to your politics. And I do know the difference between the classical liberalism of the US Founding Fathers and its use as a modern slur by Republicans. Now can you explain the difference between "liberal" and "libertine"? It sounds like you mean people exercising their liberal freedoms in ways that you don't like. But again, it would help if you said what you actually mean.
So now we see your true colours. "Freedom for me, but not for thee". You want your freedom to swagger around with a big gun, but you also want to deny the freedom for your neighbour to marry the person they love, unless its someone you approve of, based on your selective reading of some holy book. Clue: the 1st Amendment prohibits the "establishment of a religion". So any argument starting "God says..." is automatically out of bounds in any government context.
So this isn't about freedom, its about your privilege. You aren't a liberal, you are just another Hitler wannabe.
The "Proof" you quote is just reasoning from a flawed analogy (clue: there is no such thing as a paraplegic brain. There is such a thing as a male brain and a female brain, and it gets a lot more complicated once you look at the details. So the above is bullshit.
As for the "cure", there is plenty of evidence that it doesn't work, and by instilling guilt and denial it actually causes a lot more harm. People go into these "cure" programs mentally healthy and come out wrecked. I could point you at references, but I know you won't bother reading them, because you already know everything about everything.
Fuck off back to your hole, you nazi shit!
I had a premonition about something and so I flitted back and saw your deletion. Intellectual dishonesty is the core of the leftist mind that eventually devolves-- Democrat=> Socialist => Communist/Nazi.
There was nothing offensive or homophobic about the absolute truth that was posted. Try again to explain your censoring the truth. Debunk the words with your words or lose the first amendment.
You weren't worth the posts you don't delete.
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